Curse

Cuilan · Oct 19, 2009, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Of course, nobody in their right mind would advocate interrupting as a viable tactic - quite simply, because killing foes is achieved so easily and death is the ultimate shutdown.

If interruption was reworked for mobs than it would be a different story because you still have Imbagon. Before hard mode, the tactic was fine in many areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

Faster cast and attack times also means skills like empathy and backfire trigger a lot more often, not to mention the fact that any damage a mesmer deals is armor ignoring, which puts them lightyears ahead of Elementalists in HM for example. A mesmer using reactive damage can utterly explode foes in HM.

That is a good point.

Reverend Dr · Oct 19, 2009, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Although it was a good idea on Anet's part to further seperate the play style of PvE from that of PvP, their biggest mistake in GW was assuming that they could work with their single system for both PvP and PvE.

PvE was skrewed from the moment Anet thought that slapping a PvP style game and skills in a PvE atmosphere would be a good idea.

So they should have made two completely separate games?

Axel Zinfandel · Oct 19, 2009, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

So they should have made two completely separate games?

obviously not, but I believe the way the game is set up right now.. It was never a "PvE" style of gameplay compared to any other game.

Don't get me wrong, it's one of the things that attracted me to GW in the first place, but a PvP/PvE skill split should have been implemented YEARS ago, and SF aside, there are still tons of skills that are just bad and nigh useless for PvE.

It just takes a WHOLE lot more work to fix things than it is to mess them up, and Anet has done a great job of messing things up. The number of things they need to fix about PvE is absolutely ridiculous. People want buffed/changed skills, and with that opens up OP builds that make NM and HM a joke.

Arguably, It's easier to create a new game (GW2) and do things right from scratch then to fix what's already ridiculously broken.

I've had a hunch for some time that things like SF, some OP builds, and some of things they are doing and 'letting' happen, is Anet using GW as a experiment of what not to do with GW2. At least that's what I hope they are doing.

Though it's just as easily explained by human stupidity.

As for the OP, I always wondered why Anet didn't put Natural Resistance on all the enemies in HM. It would make sense to me at least. That alone would absolutely destroy the validity of skills like backfire and empathy, as well as ridiculous Assassin's Promise builds.

If that was the case though, I think they should take away from the brute force centered HM of now. I mean, don't want to make HM impossible mode. Natural Resistances alone would one switch the focus more on builds that don't focus on hexes and conditions. I'd rather see enemies in HM gain more defenses than have ridiculously OP offense. Higher offense to, for sure, but just not ridiculous.

upier · Oct 19, 2009, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

It makes the game harder in the sense that enemies are going to be doing bigger damage in a shorter period of time in hard mode. It's crap, but unless ANet completely revamp hard mode to make it an actual challenge instead of monsters that hit harder and do everything faster, then it's not going to change. Getting rid of monsters decreased casting time without changing anything else is only going to make this ridiculously easy game even easier.

1. "Tanks" with PS and SoA. Or Imbas.
2. KDs.

If the players isn't bad, the player is already using options that negate this difficulty.

I imagine if I stopped APing Guilt, Shame, Blackout and KDs and could actually play reactive interrupts, the game would actually be harder than the game I play now. Despite the decreased cast-time.
But for everyone else, yeah, the game would get easier. It's just that I doubt people would even notice. I mean, if the guy is planted on his ass for the duration of his life in battle, does it really matter how fast he casts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

As for the OP, I always wondered why Anet didn't put Natural Resistance on all the enemies in HM. It would make sense to me at least. That alone would absolutely destroy the validity of skills like backfire and empathy, as well as ridiculous Assassin's Promise builds.

If that was the case though, I think they should take away from the brute force centered HM of now. I mean, don't want to make HM impossible mode. Natural Resistances alone would one switch the focus more on builds that don't focus on hexes and conditions. I'd rather see enemies in HM gain more defenses than have ridiculously OP offense. Higher offense to, for sure, but just not ridiculous.

You have weakness and cracked that last an eternity. That is pretty much already on any Disco team.
And if nothing else - you could dump Parasitic Bond on the necros. Sure it will be a wasted slot - but who cares when Disco does it all in one skill.
Plus, WW-spam!

No, NR is simply a crappy idea. It was crappy in C1, and I for one am glad they got rid of it.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

If interruption was reworked for mobs than it would be a different story because you still have Imbagon. Before hard mode, the tactic was fine in many areas.

If you want to interrupt something, that foe needs to be alive and not KDed.
The only reason why you'd want to do that is to have fun.
Fun isn't viable.

MagmaRed · Oct 19, 2009, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Migraine, Arcane Conundrum, Frustration, Shared Burden, Stolen Speed, Confusing Images, and Sum of All Fears offer a way to make interruption easier for a Mesmer. Daze offers an easier way to interrupt for a Ranger. You can take either of those options on a hero or yourself and not ruin a build. It may certainly mean changing a build, but it doesn't mean you would ruin one. 1 skill slot is not hard to handle, and all good builds have at least 1 optional skill slot to alter based on where you are using it.

I take Gwen with the build I posted above, and Zho/Daemon who have BHA. They do quite well interrupting things, the only problem they give me is WHAT they interrupt as they will often waste an interrupt on something pathetic like Flare. When I play Mesmer I don't do interrupts because I don't like to. However, as energy management I almost always pack Power Drain, and don't have trouble using it in my builds. As Ranger, if I'm not running BHA (which I rarely do), I still manage to hit key skills with Distracting Shot enough to use it, and Savage Shot allows me to provide some nice spike damage when I interrupt spells with it.

Seriously.... HM would be easier if this went through. I agree HM wasn't designed the best it could have been, but this isn't a good way to change that poor design. And since there are ways to make interruption feasible in HM, you simply need to learn how to use those methods. If a Monk asked for the monsters to hit for less damage because they couldn't heal enough, you'd simpy tell them to take PS, SB, SoA, etc. I'm simply telling you to take a skill to make your job easier.

Arkantos · Oct 19, 2009, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

I imagine if I stopped APing Guilt, Shame, Blackout and KDs and could actually play reactive interrupts, the game would actually be harder than the game I play now. Despite the decreased cast-time.
But for everyone else, yeah, the game would get easier. It's just that I doubt people would even notice. I mean, if the guy is planted on his ass for the duration of his life in battle, does it really matter how fast he casts?

So basically you want to make the game harder....by making it easier, while you run subpar builds. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

If ANet want to give HM mobs good AI and good, full 8 slot skill bars, then I'm all for removing their inherit bonuses. If not, then it's only going to make the game easier, unless you start bringing subpar skill bars.

Glints Bane · Oct 19, 2009, 06:38 PM // 18:38

This is probably the dumbest proposal I've ever read on guru and thus I'm replying to it.

1. Its not that hard to catch interupts on AI...all of their casts are predictable. If your a mesmer or ranger and can't interupt a faster skill then your just bad at guild wars.

2. Hard mode doesn't need to be anymore of a joke then it already is

3. Don't blame Anet for your own badness at interupts. They already get anough flack for being bad.

Xenomortis · Oct 19, 2009, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The issue is that I don't see the increased skill activation speed being a decisive factor in making the game harder.
Increased speed makes just interrupting harder. Of course, nobody in their right mind would advocate interrupting as a viable tactic - quite simply, because killing foes is achieved so easily and death is the ultimate shutdown. Which basically means is that a game where interrupts aren't used really isn't that much harder (if at all) in HM DUE to the increased speed.

What reducing the speed would do is make interrupts usable. They still wouldn't be viable because you'd STILL achieve better results by just killing something or simply KDing them. But in a game where HM is easy enough for the better players to get though just with usable things - this would be sufficient.

The casting time reduction is pretty much the only reason why I have failed H/H attempts at the ToPK. In NM, I would interrupt the 3 copies of Meteor Shower with my Fevered Dreams build. In HM, if just one of those gets off without my noticing and reacting by moving heroes, I'm in trouble.
Of course I could just run something better suited.

Really, all the increased cast time does is shorten the time between a fight starting and you getting hit for a shit load of damage. That and the aforementioned "interrupts being harder to use".

Cut-out the PvE-only skills bullshit and then cut-out the casting time reduction.

Arkantos · Oct 19, 2009, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Cut-out the PvE-only skills bullshit and then cut-out the casting time reduction.

Even without PvE skills and casting time reduction, hard mode would still be poorly designed.

upier · Oct 19, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

So basically you want to make the game harder....by making it easier, while you run subpar builds. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

If ANet want to give HM mobs good AI and good, full 8 slot skill bars, then I'm all for removing their inherit bonuses. If not, then it's only going to make the game easier, unless you start bringing subpar skill bars.

Yeah, I want to make it easier so that the game can be played in a fashion that requires more skill.
The way HM is designed, faster activation times only make the game harder if you are running sub par options. Which means that if you are running the best options, you do not even (or just minimally) feel the difference in difficulty due to the increase in speed. And that again means that if this were to change, the best options would see a slight to non-existent increase in efficiency.
And it's because of this (minimal or non existent) change that you are willing to keep a complete playstyle out of the game? And it's this exact missing playstyle that separates certain classes from the rest, thus not only making them weak but also really boring.

MagmaRed · Oct 19, 2009, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Am I being ignored? Seriously.... Mesmer already has methods to deal with the increased casting speed monsters get in HM. Taking 1, ONE, of those skills is not going to destroy a build. Ranger also has Daze available from their skill selection. And with the variety of hero builds available, it isn't hard to take something to compensate for the faster casting time in HM.

Stop asking Anet to change HM so you can play a style you want to play, and learn how to play that style in HM.

Xenomortis · Oct 19, 2009, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Even without PvE skills and casting time reduction, hard mode would still be poorly designed.

Indeed.
But that's a much harder to solve problem.
Creating an unfair environment and then giving players absurd skills to power through it is also fairly stupid (but much easier to fix).

upier · Oct 19, 2009, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Am I being ignored? Seriously.... Mesmer already has methods to deal with the increased casting speed monsters get in HM. Taking 1, ONE, of those skills is not going to destroy a build. Ranger also has Daze available from their skill selection. And with the variety of hero builds available, it isn't hard to take something to compensate for the faster casting time in HM.

Stop asking Anet to change HM so you can play a style you want to play, and learn how to play that style in HM.

Yeah, because wasting MORE slots on something sub-par will make it better!
I won't waste my slots on two interrupts and Arcane Conundrum. I'll take two KD skills. Not only will that save me a slot, it will also get the job done better.
Or - I'll just kill the foes.
But for that I'll just grab a guy does killing better.

If shutdown is useless, then remove it out of the balance equation and compensate this by buffing something else.
Is the ranger or a mesmer as good of a damage dealer as a dedicated damage dealer?
No, he is not. And he is not as good because he can do other things. But these additional things are useless.
Which means that realistically looking the best thing this guy can do - someone else does better.

MagmaRed · Oct 19, 2009, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yeah, because wasting MORE slots on something sub-par will make it better!
I won't waste my slots on two interrupts and Arcane Conundrum. I'll take two KD skills. Not only will that save me a slot, it will also get the job done better.
Or - I'll just kill the foes.
But for that I'll just grab a guy does killing better.

If shutdown is useless, then remove it out of the balance equation and compensate this by buffing something else.
Is the ranger or a mesmer as good of a damage dealer as a dedicated damage dealer?
No, he is not. And he is not as good because he can do other things. But these additional things are useless.
Which means that realistically looking the best thing this guy can do - someone else does better.

Interesting that you feel that way. I don't. I have 3 Legendary Guardians, 2.7 Legendary Cartographers, 4 Legendary Skill Hunters, 3 Legendary Vanquishers, 5 Legendary Spearmarshals, 5 Holy Lightbringers, and 2.5 Legendary Master of the North's. If you can't figure it out from that list, that means I have done a lot of Hard Mode. Earlier I posted builds that I use, and although I tweak them at times for specific situations, that is the basis of what I used.

See lots of knockdowns in my builds? I see a Mesmer with interrupts and interrupt assistance. I see a Ranger with interrupts. I see hench with interrupts and interrupt assistance. I don't 'fly' through the content, but I certainly dont' struggle through it either. I enjoy my time playing, and I'm extremely effective at what I do. I could load up things like Discord and blast through things without thinking, but rolling my face across the keyboard doesn't interest me. Instead, I play how I enjoy to play, and I succeed.

If you can't change your builds to take care of HM you need to learn how to adjust better. That, or you need to stop thinking everything has to be done the 'best' way. Cause in my book, the 'best' way is the way I enjoy. If you enjoy running interrupt builds, do so. If you aren't able to due to HM, find ways to adjust, cause they are available.

Tenebrae · Oct 20, 2009, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Even without PvE skills and casting time reduction, hard mode would still be poorly designed.

Ofc , shame Anet wont do anything about HM mechanics .... do they ever post in sardelac ?

Reverend Dr · Oct 20, 2009, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

As for the OP, I always wondered why Anet didn't put Natural Resistance on all the enemies in HM. It would make sense to me at least. That alone would absolutely destroy the validity of skills like backfire and empathy, as well as ridiculous Assassin's Promise builds.

But by that same token it would make all hexes and conditions largely unusable in PvE. Much like currently how interrupts are unusable in PvE.

The problem is that they are trying to make a pve game like every other pve game. Your dudes get stronger and make bigger numbers pop up, so make the monsters do the same. WoW's game design is based around that, but Guild Wars' is not, so bringing that type of attitude towards PvE design (which was what happened) is going to end unsatisfactory.

You see I think the PvE PvP split was one of the worst ideas. I honestly feel that the Sorrow's Furnace update was the single worst update this game has ever had. That update validated that idea that this was not a PvP game, when at its core it is; the game is [was] designed for the same number of people/monsters to face each other at the same level of power. Looking at it through the perspective that they were trying to turn a pvp system into the classic EQ-PvE makes it much easier to see how the poor level of development and design that was apparent for all of the expansion classes and particularly problematic skills included in those expansions.

Now what should have happened (which of course won't happen at this point) is PvE should have been composed of level 20 mobs with good skillbars that work together, compliment each other, and good AI. If that isn't the case then the difference between PvE and PvP (which is the case) is that in pvp you spend 30 minutes to kill 8 things while in PvE you spend 30 minutes to kill 800 things.

Nereyda Shoaal · Oct 20, 2009, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glints Bane

1. Its not that hard to catch interupts on AI...all of their casts are predictable. If your a mesmer or ranger and can't interupt a faster skill then your just bad at guild wars.

This.
Interrupting 1, 2, 3 casting time spells is doable by a human being

the_jos · Oct 20, 2009, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Playing interrupter isn't about interrupting everything, it's interrupting what's important to interrupt. Most of those important spells and skills have casting times that are relatively easy to catch, even in Hard Mode.

However, this is PvE. The main way to solve problems isn't by smart play, it's by brute force. Has been like that for ages, even before the introduction of HM. Why shut a healer down when you can kill it in 5 seconds anyway?
Sure, some people feel this takes fun away, but it's fun that has never been there. At least not when playing most efficient.
There have been numerous threads about the efficiency of mesmer in PvE for example for years and that's for good reason.